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Unresolved issue regarding categorisation
[edit]Hello,
We recently had with ARK and Nebula84912, a discussion about “Categorisation of colors on flags” that was started on Nebula84912'talk page and continued on village pump without any follow-up (discussion was archived on october 14th), which is a problem since many files have been categorized in opposition to the existing principle, and thus the abandonment of the discussion suggests that those files are bound to be left as is, i.e. without any reversal or change in either direction.
It looks like additional advices may be required to help resolve this issue, hence the opening of this topic here,
Thank you, --Kontributor 2K (talk) 15:53, 23 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Kontributor 2K: are you asking for some administrative action here? If so, what?
- If you just want to un-archive the discussion, make it "live" on the Village pump again, and continue it, that does not require an admin. - Jmabel ! talk 23:27, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Jmabel: since User:Nebula84912 has been categorising lots of files in opposition to the principle that has always been in use, starting to mess the whole sector, I'd dream of some global reversion, especially given the fact the user ultimately disappeared after that the discussion proved to be a dead end – unless they reappear to discuss again. --Kontributor 2K (talk) 11:14, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Kontributor 2K: I stay largely out of policy decisions on flags, other than issues about whether a given flag is real-world or user fiction. Is there some admin who works in that area? Alternatively, might you be able to form something of a consensus at Commons talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology? I'm not taking unilateral action in an area where I'm not at all expert and don't think consensus is clear. - Jmabel ! talk 12:08, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Jmabel: Regardless of the fact that, in effect, all it takes is for one user to have an offbeat approach and take unilateral actions in their own point of view against a long-standing process for that process, not to say the long-standing implicit consensus, to become unclear, it may indeed be more relevant to continue this on the Heraldry and vexillology talk page; I ping @ARK: for the tracking. Thank you, --Kontributor 2K (talk) 12:28, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Jmabel: Among users with any domain expertise in heraldry and vexillology, it probably wouldn't take much to reach a consensus on the simple proposition, conventionally considered a matter of course, that heraldic flags should have their colours categorised in the traditional heraldic manner, which counts black only as a 'colour' if an actual element of the heraldic design is coloured black, as opposed to merely having its outline strengthened by a black stroke. However, it does not look like WikiProject Heraldry and Vexillology is frequented by such users on a regular basis. Ziv is an admin who's been taking an interest in heraldic matters. Maybe she'd like to make a judgment call? ARK (talk) 15:24, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry if it took a while to reply. I skimmed through it at work, but didn't want to comment in detail until after work. First, reading through the entire discussion would take too long, so I'll summarize briefly. Edits by Nebula84912 related to flags, coats of arms, etc. are unwelcome, as they're incorrect. Am I right about that? Since the user hasn't been active since October 4th, I think judgment call is rather hopeless, unless the user reappears and continues in the same vein. @Kontributor 2K, you're talking about a rollback, of what? Only in connection with "Black"? How many reverts should we assume, given the user's 53,764 edits? Could they be handled manually, since they were only unwanted in connection with black, or in general? Enlighten me, please. Could you and @ARK: possibly handle the reverts yourselves, or is the number of reverts exceeding a certain number that would make it better to use a bot for that? Something I've never done, though; I'd have to leave it to someone else. Regards, זיו「Ziv」 • For love letters and other notes 21:03, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Ziv: Not quite. Let's use a simple example to get to the core of the issue. The Swiss national insignia look like this: on a red background, a white cross that doesn’t touch the edges, which translates to gules, a cross argent couped in formal heraldic description. The formal heraldic description need not concern us here. We just need to recognise that this is a heraldic design and as such it can be rendered, interchangeably, as either a coat of arms or a flag. Note also that the formal description only specifies two colours: red and white.There's even a federal law [PDF] that dates back to 1889 and defines the Swiss national insignia as a couped white cross in a red field. Again: two colours.
- Now, how does this heraldic design get rendered in practice? In practice, artists may choose to strengthen the contrast between the white cross and the red background by putting a black stroke on the cross. As a general rule, this practice is used more commonly in coats of arms than it is in flags, but it can be seen in flags as well.
- According to Nebula84912's logic, a Swiss flag with an outlined cross would have to be classified among the black, red, white flags of Switzerland, which not only flies in the face of the most basic common-sense understanding of what the Swiss flag looks like, it defies long-standing usage on Commons and descriptive practice established long before the internet came into existence.
- Due to to Nebula84912's intervention, the category Black, red, white flags of Switzerland is now a very mixed bag of flags that belong there and flags that have absolutely no business being there because their presumed "black" is just an outline, an arbitrary rendering choice rather than an actual design element.
- The "Black, red, white flags of Switzerland" category is one out of many categories that Nebula84912 has corrupted in the same manner over a period of several months. ARK (talk) 09:25, 29 October 2025 (UTC)
- If it were just this one category, I could tackle it myself and undo the edits, but if there are several more, then it becomes a Sisyphean task that would probably be better done by a bot. זיו「Ziv」 • For love letters and other notes 09:55, 29 October 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry if it took a while to reply. I skimmed through it at work, but didn't want to comment in detail until after work. First, reading through the entire discussion would take too long, so I'll summarize briefly. Edits by Nebula84912 related to flags, coats of arms, etc. are unwelcome, as they're incorrect. Am I right about that? Since the user hasn't been active since October 4th, I think judgment call is rather hopeless, unless the user reappears and continues in the same vein. @Kontributor 2K, you're talking about a rollback, of what? Only in connection with "Black"? How many reverts should we assume, given the user's 53,764 edits? Could they be handled manually, since they were only unwanted in connection with black, or in general? Enlighten me, please. Could you and @ARK: possibly handle the reverts yourselves, or is the number of reverts exceeding a certain number that would make it better to use a bot for that? Something I've never done, though; I'd have to leave it to someone else. Regards, זיו「Ziv」 • For love letters and other notes 21:03, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Jmabel: Among users with any domain expertise in heraldry and vexillology, it probably wouldn't take much to reach a consensus on the simple proposition, conventionally considered a matter of course, that heraldic flags should have their colours categorised in the traditional heraldic manner, which counts black only as a 'colour' if an actual element of the heraldic design is coloured black, as opposed to merely having its outline strengthened by a black stroke. However, it does not look like WikiProject Heraldry and Vexillology is frequented by such users on a regular basis. Ziv is an admin who's been taking an interest in heraldic matters. Maybe she'd like to make a judgment call? ARK (talk) 15:24, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Jmabel: Regardless of the fact that, in effect, all it takes is for one user to have an offbeat approach and take unilateral actions in their own point of view against a long-standing process for that process, not to say the long-standing implicit consensus, to become unclear, it may indeed be more relevant to continue this on the Heraldry and vexillology talk page; I ping @ARK: for the tracking. Thank you, --Kontributor 2K (talk) 12:28, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Kontributor 2K: I stay largely out of policy decisions on flags, other than issues about whether a given flag is real-world or user fiction. Is there some admin who works in that area? Alternatively, might you be able to form something of a consensus at Commons talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology? I'm not taking unilateral action in an area where I'm not at all expert and don't think consensus is clear. - Jmabel ! talk 12:08, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Jmabel: since User:Nebula84912 has been categorising lots of files in opposition to the principle that has always been in use, starting to mess the whole sector, I'd dream of some global reversion, especially given the fact the user ultimately disappeared after that the discussion proved to be a dead end – unless they reappear to discuss again. --Kontributor 2K (talk) 11:14, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, Nebula84912 was quite active and went unchallenged for months. However, the user's edit logs consistently feature accurate edit summaries, e.g. on 1 Oct. 2025 the edit summary for the file Flagge Elchesheim-Illingen.svg says that it was moved from category Blue and white flags of Germany to category Black, blue, white, yellow flags of Germany. If a bot were to target for reversion all edits by Nebula84912 that include "black" or "Black" in their edit summary, we'd have the issue fixed rather quickly. Still: However flimsy the arguments are that have been put forward in support of the idea that heraldic flags should be categorised as featuring "black" even if that colour is used for outlines only, there are still those who would credit these arguments as valid dissent from the consensus. Fornax is an active admin with conspicuous rightheadedness about heraldry and vexillology. Maybe he could help us out with a verdict? ARK (talk) 08:22, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
- Just to clarify: I'm not an admin on Commons, I've never been involved with admin-related topics there, and I'm not familiar with the issue at hand either. Fornax (talk) 08:51, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Fornax: My mistake, sorry for the confusion! Since you're here, however, may I ask you as a heraldic artist yourself whether you consider the municipal flag of Hérémence to be correctly categorised as having "black" among its "colours"? Should the black outline on the star be counted as a "colour"? Thanks! ARK (talk) 09:43, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
- In my view, an outline should not be classified as a “color” within the context of Commons categorization. It serves primarily as a design element that accentuates the shape of a motif without altering its inherent coloration. However, outlines might reasonably be considered a “color” when they are visually dominant or carry symbolic weight—for instance, a black cross on a white field with a red border, where the border is an integral part of the design. To avoid semantic confusion and ensure more accurate categorization, it would be preferable to introduce dedicated categories such as “Flags with outlined stars” or “Flags with black outlines.” Fornax (talk) 10:30, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Fornax: Thank you for your advice regarding a new category “Flags with black outlines”, which might be well taken, but the issue at hand concerns a user who has incorrectly re-categorised large numbers of heraldic flags as featuring the colour black, merely because elements with black outlines are present in their design. We're trying to reach an informed consensus on this re-categorisation being in fact incorrect. On the face of it, your assertion that black outlines "should not be classified as a 'color' within the context of Commons categorization" supports this consensus. You add the qualification, however, that "outlines might reasonably be considered a 'color' when they are visually dominant or carry symbolic weight". This qualification might be misconstrued as a weighty exception to the general rule. So allow me to ask: In your expert opinion as a seasoned heraldic artist, wouldn't you agree that any doubt regarding the status as a "colour" of any such coloured border could, in the overwhelming majority of cases, very easily be resolved simply by reference to the formal verbal description of the design, the blazon, which would explicitly call for a white star with a black border if such a border, as opposed to an arbitrary outline, were considered a constitutive part of the design? (Sorry if this is beginning to sound like a cross-examination of a witness at trial, but the primacy of the formal verbal description of any heraldic design is a key technical point that needs to be understood by non-experts if they are meant to support this consensus.) Best, ARK (talk) 21:06, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
- In my view, an outline should not be classified as a “color” within the context of Commons categorization. It serves primarily as a design element that accentuates the shape of a motif without altering its inherent coloration. However, outlines might reasonably be considered a “color” when they are visually dominant or carry symbolic weight—for instance, a black cross on a white field with a red border, where the border is an integral part of the design. To avoid semantic confusion and ensure more accurate categorization, it would be preferable to introduce dedicated categories such as “Flags with outlined stars” or “Flags with black outlines.” Fornax (talk) 10:30, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Fornax: My mistake, sorry for the confusion! Since you're here, however, may I ask you as a heraldic artist yourself whether you consider the municipal flag of Hérémence to be correctly categorised as having "black" among its "colours"? Should the black outline on the star be counted as a "colour"? Thanks! ARK (talk) 09:43, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
- Just to clarify: I'm not an admin on Commons, I've never been involved with admin-related topics there, and I'm not familiar with the issue at hand either. Fornax (talk) 08:51, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
- Yeah, Nebula84912 was quite active and went unchallenged for months. However, the user's edit logs consistently feature accurate edit summaries, e.g. on 1 Oct. 2025 the edit summary for the file Flagge Elchesheim-Illingen.svg says that it was moved from category Blue and white flags of Germany to category Black, blue, white, yellow flags of Germany. If a bot were to target for reversion all edits by Nebula84912 that include "black" or "Black" in their edit summary, we'd have the issue fixed rather quickly. Still: However flimsy the arguments are that have been put forward in support of the idea that heraldic flags should be categorised as featuring "black" even if that colour is used for outlines only, there are still those who would credit these arguments as valid dissent from the consensus. Fornax is an active admin with conspicuous rightheadedness about heraldry and vexillology. Maybe he could help us out with a verdict? ARK (talk) 08:22, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
To illustrate, shown below are two municipal flags. One has two colours, the other has three:
-
Red and white -
Black, red, white
Also observe that the corresponding coats of arms do not only state the formal heraldic description, they also show the colours under their heraldic names as "tinctures". Two of them in the case of Hérémence and three of them in the case of Gurzelen.
- ARK; I understand where the problem lies. The question is, how do we best solve the problem? זיו「Ziv」 • For love letters and other notes 09:57, 29 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Ziv: Two steps:
- convince Jmabel that "consensus is clear".
- Get a bot to revert all edits by Nebula that have "black" or "Black" in their edit summary. ARK (talk) 09:18, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
- @ARK: I think we can reach a consensus if you include me. The request and problem description should then go here: COM:BR. That would probably be something for @Schlurcher: , and would also have the advantage that you could describe the whole thing to him in German. Regards, זיו「Ziv」 • For love letters and other notes 09:28, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Ziv: Thanks for the tip about SchlurcherBot! However, I'm not very well versed in protocol: technically, what is the standard that needs to be met for a consensus to be a consensus? ARK (talk) 19:59, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
- @Ziv: Two steps:
- I said “I would dream of some global reversion”, in a dream world some artificial intelligence, or a magician, would handle this at a glance; in reality it will most likely have to be solved via cat-a-lot, manually (i.e. by non-admins). In a better world, Nebula84912 would suddenly appear, to relieve their fellow contributors from this task which, anyway, will be initiated soon. unless otherwise advised
- --Kontributor 2K (talk) 12:21, 29 October 2025 (UTC)
Multiple copyright violations
[edit]Participant RaiymbekZh (talk) creates a lot of images that are soon sent for deletion. The participant was given a warning about copyright infringement. But there are no corrections. Please take action. Zix001 (talk) 15:17, 25 October 2025 (UTC)
Done Blocked for a week, all files deleted. Please report on COM:ANB next time. Thanks, Yann (talk) 16:36, 25 October 2025 (UTC)
- Thank you. I'll know. Zix001 (talk) 16:38, 25 October 2025 (UTC)
Rename request of protected file
[edit]Can an admin do the following rename request: File:State Visit of the President of the Socialist Republic of Viet Nam (2) (54040650320) (cropped).jpg? The file is cascade protected. Thanks. Geoffroi 22:47, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
_(54040650320)_(cropped).jpg){kind=link}
- Done, though I did not use the exact name suggested there. - Jmabel ! talk 23:30, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
Meine Libe グローバル・ブロックについて
[edit]- [Ticket#: 2025101210000189]
- [[1]]
- 無期限ブロック。
- 理由: Wikipedia:投稿ブロック依頼/Meine Libe
- 編集 (サイト全体)
- アカウント作成も禁止
- extendedconfirmed
会話ページはこちら。usertalk:Meine Libe（済みません。日本語版のWikipediaのtalkpageに行けません）
Wikimedia Commonsに「異議申し立て」をお送りした「Meine Libe」です。10月12日(日)にメールを受信しましたのでご報告します。この様にブロックしたのは「Sumaru」です。以前に申し立てを行った様に私は日本語版のWikipediaで過ちを犯し無期限ブロックとなりましたが、反省し、過ちを改めると誓い、又、貢献したいと強く願いましたが、彼らは聞く耳を全く持って居ません。私のWikipedia会話ページにも来る様子はありません。恐らくこの私がソックパペットを複数使用して居るのだと誤解して居るのか、誤った確信を抱いて居るものと思われます。そう思われても仕方の無い編集をして来たのは確かですが、もし仮にその様な謂れなき理由でグローバル・ブロックをし、会話にも全く応じないのであれば解決の糸口は日本語版のWikipediaでは見込めません。IP迄ブロックした管理者の本心も知りたいと思うのです。私は過去、２度ユーザー名を変更しましたが、それには理由があり、ブロック破りでは無いと確信して居ますが、彼らは何の理由があって確信に至ったのか、私には全く伝え様ともしないのです。これでは意思疎通は図れません。会話が全く成立し無いのです。ですので精査していただき、私の疑問が解ける事を願い出たいと心から願います。Meine Libe
2025年10月28日17:14（Japan Standard Time） — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 118.152.153.165 (talk) 08:14, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell via Google Translate, this is an attempt to bring drama from another wiki into Commons (please don't do that). You remain with access to ja:利用者‐会話:Meine Libe. If you feel someone has not looked at that page and should, you should ping them there. Also, if you are really Meine Libe, why are you editing from an IP address here on Commons? Your account here is not blocked and never has been. In fact, you have never edited under that account on this wiki. Feel free to participate in Commons if you choose to, but please do not import drama from ja-wiki. - Jmabel ! talk 12:20, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
- ごめんなさい。ご指摘の通りです。恐らくウィキ間違いだった様です。コモンズでは見当違いだったみたいですので、他のウィキを探しみます。Meine Libe 2025年10月29日18:10(日本標準時) 118.152.153.165 09:10, 29 October 2025 (UTC)
তারেক জিয়া এবং খালেদা জিয়া সাথে আমার পিক এড করতে চাই
[edit]তারেক জিয়া এবং খালেদা জিয়ার সাথে আমার একটা পিক এড করতে চাই Imtaiz ahmed shovu (talk) 07:49, 29 October 2025 (UTC)
- (working via Google Translate) @Imtaiz ahmed shovu: who took the photo? - Jmabel ! talk 03:08, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
Request Block
[edit]Hello,
Could I please request a six month block for myself? The entire Wikimedia movement is not conducive for my mental health at the moment, and I'd like to have a reinforced Wikibreak. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 12:19, 29 October 2025 (UTC)
I noticed two files that seem to be identical: File:Gehörnter Gott, Enkomi.jpg and File:Gehörnter Gott, Enkomi, 12. Jh. v. Chr. C.jpg. They were uploaded by the same user (who is not active anymore) in 13 months gap, so I guess he just forgot he had already uplaoded the file when he uploaded it again. Should the files be merged? פעמי-עליון (talk) 12:27, 29 October 2025 (UTC)
- @פעמי-עליון: This is basically why {{Duplicate}} exists. Feel free to hand merge the descriptions, structured data, etc. to one copy, them mark the other with {{Duplicate}} so that it can be deleted, turned into a redirect, and anything that references it on sister projects can be changed accordingly. - Jmabel ! talk 03:14, 30 October 2025 (UTC)
Delete my uploads and delete my account
[edit]I have requested speedy deletion of all of my files as I am the author and wish to withdraw them Zaragoza Enamora (talk) 16:11, 29 October 2025 (UTC)
- Done I deleted all files from Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by Zaragoza Enamora. Yann (talk) 16:23, 29 October 2025 (UTC)
Suppression demandée de cinq photos. Demandes plusieurs fois refusées
[edit]Je suis l'auteur des cinq photos suivantes, présentes sur Commons Mollans (70). Château de Mollans (1), château de Mollans (2), dépendances du château de Mollans, chapelle castrale du château de Mollans (1), chapelle castrale du château de Mollans (2). Ces vues ont été importées le 05-07-2024. J'en demande la suppression pour raison de courtoise. Merci. Espirat Jean E.J (talk) 10:35, 30 October 2025 (UTC)